022b ולד חטאת פרק רביעי תמורה כב ע"ב – VELAD CHATOS CHAPTER FOUR TEMURAH

Gemara

Rava said: a lost animal at night^[1] is not called a lost animal.

גופא אבודת לילה - The Gemara supposes: it was lost only at night and found at dawn, so one cannot find a case of a loss at the time of atonement, since the other [offering] was not offered at night.

In whose view? If you say, in the view of the Rabbis:

why specifically a loss at night? Even a loss by day^[2], as the Rabbis say: a loss at the time of separation grazes.

אפילו אבודת יום נמי - even [the case of] a loss by day: that it was found before the atonement of the other.

דהא אמרי רבנן - for the Rabbis say: in the Mishnah, 'a loss at the time of separation' means at the time when the other [offering] set aside in its place is still set aside and standing, not yet offered, before the first was found; it grazes.

But if you say it is in Rabbi's view: Rabbi only said [it dies] for a loss by day, but a loss at night, even Rabbi agrees that it goes to graze^[3].

אלא אליבא דרבי - Rather, in Rabbi's view, who says it dies. Rava teaches that Rabbi only said [it dies] for a loss by day; but a loss at night goes to graze. Since even if we hold it, it cannot be offered at night, it is not a loss.

If you prefer, say: it is in fact in the view of the Rabbis.

And here, what are we dealing with? A loss at the time of atonement^[4].

בשעת כפרה - that was lost at night and not found again until the owners atoned with another.

The Rabbis only said that a loss at the time of atonement dies when its main loss was by day; but where its main loss was at night, [the rule does not apply].

עיקר אבודה - the beginning of its loss.

Abaye said: we hold a loss and not a theft^[5], a loss and not a robbery. What is a case of loss?

נקטינן אבודה - in the time of atonement it dies.

ולא גנובה - and if it was returned to him after atonement, it grazes, and its money goes to freewill.

Rabbi Oshaya said: even one [animal] in its flock^[6], and even one [animal] among one other.

אחת בעדרו - that was mixed into his flock; even though he sees them all, since he recognizes it only after atonement, it is a loss.

ואפילו אחת - of a sin offering mixed with one of the unconsecrated animals.

And Rabbi Yochanan said: [lost] behind the door.

They asked: how is it meant, behind the door? It is where no one sees it; but in the open, where someone sees it^[7], it is not a loss? Or perhaps: behind the door, where if he turns his face he sees it, it is a loss, and all the more so in the open where it is not seen? Unresolved.

אבל אבראי - that went off into the wilderness and was mixed with the animals of others; those others themselves do not recognize it, yet since they saw it, it is a loss even though they do not recognize it.

וכל שכן אבראי - that he does not see at all. Another explanation: 'but in a flock' where he sees it; since he sees them all, even though he does not recognize it, it is not a loss.

Rav Papa said: we learn that a loss from him and not from the shepherd is not a loss; all the more so a loss from the shepherd and not from him [is not a loss]. A loss from him and from the shepherd, and one at the far end of the world recognizes it [is a loss].

ופליגי - that is, that he will separate it from them later, when he recognizes it.

What is the ruling on 'unresolved^[8]'?

דלא קא ידע - that he does not know which one it is; the question stands unresolved.

Rav Papa asked: what about a loss in a cup^[9]? In whose view?

אבודה בכוס - lost while its blood was in a cup: it was lost, and he set aside another, slaughtered it and received its blood, and while the blood of the first is still in the cup, the first is found.

If you say, in Rabbi's view:

Did he say that a loss at the time of separation dies^[10]?

האמר אבודה בשעת הפרשה - that is, found while its fellow was still standing, and it dies. All the more so here, where it was already slaughtered; one may say that whatever is about to be sprinkled is considered as sprinkled, and it is like a loss at the time of atonement.

Rather, he asked it in the view of the Rabbis.

Do we say that when the Rabbis said^[11] at the time of separation it grazes, [this applies] before its blood is received in the cup?

כי אמרו רבנן אבודה בשעת הפרשה רועה - and even after the owners atoned with another, this applies only when it is found before its blood was received in the cup; but here, etc.

But here, they hold that anything about to be sprinkled is considered as sprinkled^[12].

Or perhaps, as long as its blood has not been sprinkled, a loss at the time of separation is like [a loss at separation] and it grazes.

And some say: in fact it is in Rabbi's view; when he asked it, [the case was] for example that its blood was received in two cups, and one of them was lost.

לעולם אליבא דרבי - and it should not be phrased as two animals, but as one animal whose blood was received in two cups.

ואבד האחד - at the time of sprinkling the other's blood.

And in whose view is it that a cup makes the other pushed away^[13]? There is no need to ask this.

אליבא דמאן דאמר - in Yoma^[14], in the chapter Hotzi'o lo, the one who holds that a cup makes the other pushed away: a sin offering whose blood was received in four cups, and the four sprinklings were given from one; the rest are poured out to the base. Here, when the one was lost, the cup is pushed away and the rest are poured to the drain.

But you may ask it in the view of one who says a cup makes the other a remainder^[15]: that applies where both exist, since wherever it is needed one sprinkles; but here, the other does not exist.

שיריים - that all of them are poured to the base; but here, where it was lost, the loss made it pushed away, and the sacrifice is invalid.

But here, the other does not exist.

Or perhaps there is no difference. Unresolved.

או דלמא לא שנא - is to be asked.

Mishnah

If one set aside a sin offering and it was lost, and he offered another in its place, and afterwards the first was found, it dies^[16].

מתני' ואח"כ נמצאת הראשונה תמות - Mishnah: and afterwards the first is found, it dies, even if it is found unblemished, since the owners had already atoned; for we require two flaws where it is found and only afterwards the owners atone.

If one set aside money for his sin offering and it was lost, and he offered a sin offering in its place, and afterwards the money was found, it goes to the Dead Sea.

ילכו לים המלח - wherever the sin offering would die, the money too goes to the Dead Sea.

If one set aside money for a sin offering and it was lost, and he set aside other money in its place, and did not have time to buy a sin offering from it before the first money was found, he brings a sin offering from these and those, and the remainder goes to a freewill fund.

מאלו ומאלו - they are combined: since he brings from both, they are not a sin offering whose owners atoned with another. But if he brought from one of them, the other would be pushed away, being like the money of a sin offering whose owners atoned with another. But when he brings from these and those, there is no sin offering whose owners atoned, and it is like the remainder of a sin offering, which goes to freewill.

If one set aside money for his sin offering and it was lost, and he set aside a sin offering in its place, and did not have time to offer it before the money was found, and the sin offering now has a blemish, it is sold^[17], and he brings a sin offering from these and those, and the remainder goes to a freewill fund.

תימכר ויביא מאלו ומאלו כו' - but if it was unblemished, it is offered, and the money goes to the Dead Sea, since the owners atoned with another; and all these [cases] are in Rabbi's view.

If one set aside a sin offering and it was lost, and he set aside money in its place, and did not have time to buy a sin offering from it before his sin offering was found, and it now has a blemish, it is sold, and he brings a sin offering from these and those, and the remainder goes to a freewill fund.

If one set aside his sin offering and it was lost, and he set aside another in its place, and did not have time to offer it before the first was found, and both now have a blemish, both are sold, and he brings a sin offering from these and those, and the remainder goes to a freewill fund.

If one set aside a sin offering and it was lost, and he set aside another in its place, and did not have time to offer it before the first was found, and both were unblemished: one of them is offered as a sin offering and the other dies, the words of Rabbi. But the Sages say: a sin offering does not die unless it was found after the owners atoned; and the money does not go to the Dead Sea^[18] unless it was found after the owners atoned.

ואין המעות הולכות לים המלח - even if [the owners] atoned through one of the public [offerings] after the lost [item] was found, since it was found before atonement.

If one set aside a sin offering and it has a blemish, he sells it and brings another with its money.

Rabbi Eliezer son of Rabbi Shimon says: if the second was offered before the first was slaughtered, the first dies, since the owners have already atoned.

אם קרבה שניה עד שלא נשחטה - the first, in the house, is taken for ordinary food; it dies, although it is unconsecrated, since it is a sin offering whose owners already atoned.

Gemara

What is the reason [that the first dies]? Because he offered another in its place.

But if he did not offer another in its place, it grazes.

Whose view is it? That of the Rabbis^[19], who say: a loss at the time of separation grazes.

גמ' אבודה בשעת הפרשה - e.g., those monies that were found before atonement and went to the Dead Sea; in that case he cannot bring from these and those.

Say the last clause [of the Mishnah].

If one set aside money for a sin offering and it was lost, and set aside others in its place, he brings from these and those, and the remainder goes to a freewill fund.

What is the reason for 'from these and those'?

טעמא מאלו ומאלו - because one cannot say that the owners atoned with another.

But if he brought from one of them, the second goes to the Dead Sea.

הא הביא - But if he brought [a sin offering] from one of the public [offerings], the second goes to the Dead Sea, even though it was found before atonement and was lost only at the time of separation.

We have come to Rabbi, who says^[20] a loss at the time of separation dies. The first clause is the Rabbis, and the last clause is Rabbi.

This works according to Rav Huna^[21], who said it in the name of Rav.

הניחא לרב הונא - who says later.

Tosafot

אפי' אבודה דיממא נמי דאמרי רבנן אבודה בשעת הפרשה רועה - And if you say: let it be said that it is needed for Rabbi Abba, who says later (Temurah 23a): all agree that when it is not lost and is atoned with another, a lost animal dies. The Rabbis needed to teach us that a loss at night, atoned with another while it is not lost, does not die; but a loss by day dies in the same case. It must be said that this view does not hold Rabbi Abba's view; likewise there are sugyot in the chapter 'Mi shehaya tamei' (Pesachim 97a^[22]) that cannot be explained according to Rabbi Abba.

Notes

1. 1. Avudah: an animal set aside for a sacrifice that is lost. If it is found after the owners have already atoned with a replacement, it dies and cannot be offered. Rava's point here is that a loss at night is not counted as a loss at all.
2. 2. Rabbis: a lost animal left to graze (ro'eh) is pastured and is not offered; this is the Mishnah's view of a loss at the time of separation.
3. 3. Rabbi (general knowledge: Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi, the Tanna of the Mishnah) holds that a lost animal dies; the Gemara limits this to a loss by day.
4. 4. At the time of atonement: the point at which the owners have completed their atonement with the replacement offering.
5. 5. Abaye lists the cases: a loss, not a theft; a loss, not a robbery. Stolen or robbed animals are not treated as lost.
6. 6. Its flock: the animal is mixed into its owner's herd. The owner sees them all but cannot tell which one it is.
7. 7. Avrai (in the open): a field or wilderness where the animal may be mixed with other people's animals.
8. 8. Teiku marks a question the Gemara leaves unresolved.
9. 9. Blood of a sacrifice was collected in a cup and then sprinkled on the altar. The question concerns an animal whose blood is still in a cup.
10. 10. Rabbi's ruling, quoted here as his earlier statement: a loss at the time of separation dies.
11. 11. The Rabbis earlier said that a loss at the time of separation grazes; the question is whether this holds before the blood enters the cup.
12. 12. The principle that whatever is about to be sprinkled is treated as already sprinkled.
13. 13. Dachui: the blood of one cup displaces the other's blood, as taught in Yoma. The question is how this applies to a lost animal.
14. 14. Tractate Yoma, chapter Hotzi'o lo: the rule that one cup's blood displaces another's.
15. 15. Shirayim: the remainder of the blood, which is poured out at the base of the altar.
16. 16. The Mishnah's rule: a lost sin offering that is found after the owners atoned with a replacement dies.
17. 17. A sin offering with a blemish is sold, and the money is used as a sin offering or goes to a freewill fund.
18. 18. Money set aside for a sin offering that is no longer needed is taken to the Dead Sea (general knowledge: the Dead Sea was where such consecrated money was disposed of).
19. 19. The Rabbis of the Mishnah: the view that a loss at the time of separation grazes.
20. 20. Rabbi (general knowledge: Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi): a loss at the time of separation dies.
21. 21. Rav Huna, a Babylonian Amora (general knowledge).
22. 22. Pesachim 97a (chapter Mi shehaya tamei): another passage that Tosfos says cannot be explained according to Rabbi Abba.